Sannion ([info]sannion) wrote,
@ 2008-01-07 16:24:00
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Entry tags:greco-egyptian, neos alexandria, sannion

Some people, apparently, are quite curious about my religious profession. They want to know where to place me on the spectrum of things, and by what authority I write the content that I do. While I think there are far more important matters to concern oneself with, in the hopes of resolving further conflict I’ll attempt to clarify certain questions once and for all. I am, certainly everyone will agree, the best authority on the religion of Sannion, so here it is in my own words.

First and foremost, I am a Dionysian. Everything I do, and hold dear, and am revolves around my relationship with the god Dionysos. My life has been subject to a great deal of change over the better part of the last two decades, but the one constant through it all has been an abiding love for him, a desire to know him as completely as I can and to follow his path as best as I am able. I wear his ivy tattooed on my flesh for all to see; I dedicate my every waking moment to serving him as his priest. I write for him; I keep his shrine; I celebrate his festivals; I give out his oracles; I answer countless questions from people about him, and help guide them through the painful and bewildering changes that can come when the god enters their life. I have stripped away everything in my life that has held me back from being a Dionysian – and continue to do so because it is an unending process. There is nothing that I hold closer to my heart than the Lord Dionysos.

And because of that, I have been led to honor the other gods as well. I would have been quite content being a henotheist, with Dionysos as my all and everything. But that was not his wish. He urged me to pay respects to the other gods, who are his friends and family, to do my part to contribute to the revival of their worship in the modern world. So to honor him, I serve them as well.

At first, I focused only on the Greek gods, since they were his immediate family. I established a strong relationship with Hermes, whom I now count as my patron as well, only slightly below Dionysos in the hierarchy of my affections. Other Greek gods that I grew to love included Aphrodite, Hera, Asklepios, Zeus, Apollon, Hekate, Nyx, and Persephone. I have shrines in my home and perform regular cultus for each of them. Of course, these are not the only gods that I honor from the Greek panthon – only the ones that I can afford to keep shrines for. But on their holy days and festivals I make offerings to most of the other Greek gods, as well as devoting time to studying them, writing for them, talking about them to people, and reflecting on the ways in which they intercept with my life.

But the Greek side is only part of the picture of my spiritual life. Several years ago, while I was living in Las Vegas, I had a very powerful and vivid encounter with the god Horus. At the time I was a fairly strict, culturally specific Hellenic Reconstructionist. As such I only drew on material from ancient Greece for my philosophy and religious practice. While I accepted that there were gods other than the Olympians, since converting from Wicca several years prior I had had nothing to do with them, and they were pretty much non-entities to me, save for what I saw of them reflected in the lives of my friends from other religious backgrounds.

And that was pretty much how I expected things to remain. But Horus refused to go away. Over a couple weeks’ time he kept popping up all over the place, in the most random but undeniable of ways. And at first, it was a little troubling. Why was this Egyptian god appearing to a Hellenist of all people? What could he possibly want with me? And if I did end up accepting him – and honestly, how could I turn my back on him: wouldn’t that be against the laws of hospitality - how would that fit in with the rest of my Hellenocentric worldview? More importantly, how would my own gods feel about me accepting this Egyptian into their ranks?

Well, as it turned out they didn’t have any problem with it whatsoever – in fact I felt myself nudged to explore ancient Egyptian culture and history by Dionysos, who I later learned had strong roots in that part of the world – and the more I learned about Egypt and her gods, the more fascinated I became. Many of the things that I had always had a deep interest in such as magic, mysticism, and the afterlife at that time were frowned upon in large parts of the Hellenic Polytheist community and at best were seen as marginal to our faith. (This attitude has changed considerably, so that most people hardly bat an eye at such interests today.) But in Kemetic circles they were warmly embraced and even, in some senses, considered central to the religion. I found myself intensely drawn to certain periods of Egyptian history (especially the 18th Dynasty), as well as to the art and literature of the culture. Concepts such as Ma’at (order, balance, justice) and the cyclical nature of time appealed to me as a Libra, and there was something in the myths (especially those surrounding Osiris and his family) that resonated deeply and powerfully within my soul. In time I was forced to admit that this had become more than just an academic interest for me and that the scales were weighed more heavily in favor of Egypt than Greece.

I began identifying as a Kemetic or Egyptian Reconstructionist, read everything I could find on Egyptian history and religion, and studied with a couple different temples before finding what I thought would be my spiritual home in the House of Netjer. They were a very warm and accepting community, and I quickly got over certain misgivings I had had about the group prior to joining. I was impressed with their level of organization, their accomplishments such as a detailed training program for beginners and clergy, a widely-attended series of annual retreats, and the fact that they had managed to purchase temple land. Tamara Siuda, far from being the meglomaniacal evil cult-leader that many ex-members made her out to be, struck me as a charming, intelligent, passionate, and highly devoted woman deserving of the respect her followers accorded her.

While in the House I was divined as a child of Hathor (Hethert-Sekhmet), which came as quite a surprise to me since I had never felt particularly drawn to her before. But the choice proved an eerily appropriate one as I soon discovered a great number of affinities between the goddess and myself, some so coincidental and impossible for Tamara to have known beforehand as to remove any doubt in my mind as to the efficy of the House’s Parent Divinations. Had I not joined the House, I suspect I never would have persued any kind of relationship with her, and thus would have missed out on a considerable number of wonderful experiences with this most amazing of goddesses, as well as the insight into my own nature which was gained from the divination. Other Kemetic deities that I have developed a relationship with (and now maintain shrines for) are Sobek, Nephthys, Anubis, Isis, Osiris, Seth, Apis, Bast, Re and Thoth. While I love all of the Netjeru, these are the ones that are dearest in my affections.

But I am no longer in the House, and I suppose that is part of what has led me here. My time there was largely pleasant, and certainly important for my spiritual growth, but there were some individuals (and I do not know if they are still members or still hold to such extreme views and regardless want to make it abundantly clear that these views are not representative of the community as a whole, which is very tolerant and accepting of different paths) who insisted that I was not Egyptian enough, that I had held on to too much from my Greek past. Some (though again, not all) espoused the innate superiority of all things Egyptian, and xenophobicly looked down their noses at the Greeks and Romans as barbaric infidel invaders who had destroyed everything good and beautiful about the country and its culture. (The irony of such comments coming from people with lighter skin than I who lived in the heartland of the U.S. was not lost on me.) I grew tired of constantly having to defend the Greeks and battling such ignorance and biggotry and finally stopped posting on the boards. Other problems, with different members, eventually necessitated my departure from the community. But I have no lingering bad feelings in regard to the House: I have a great deal of respect for its leadership and frequently direct people there who are looking for a solid Kemetic community, and have since maintained strong friendships with a number of House members. A few bad apples do not spoil the bunch, be those bad apples Kemetic or in this case Hellenic.

There was one positive to this conflict, however. It made me reflect on the fact that Greece still mattered to me. When I had converted to Kemeticism I had thought that it was necessary to put all of that behind me. (Except for my worship of Dionysos, who I increasingly saw to be trans-cultural and has always been the one constant for me, the pole star around which my life revolves.) I felt that I needed to turn my back on those traditions in order to adopt new ones, that I had to give up all of those parts of myself which had been so deeply invested in Greek thought and religious practice, as well as the groups I had helped found and the body of writing which I had contributed to the community. I think that’s part of why I felt so alienated in Kemeticism – I had become alienated from myself. I was living as only part of the man that I truly was. And so I re-embraced Hellenismos and my history – but with a catch. I vowed that I would not make the same mistake twice. I would not turn my back on the gods that I had found in Egypt, or the beliefs and practices that had come to mean so much to me, or the insight I had gained about myself over the year I spent in Kemeticism. Ideas of cultural purity be damned. I would stradle two worlds if need be, and tear down all the self-imposed and illusionary walls that served to separate them in the process. (This defiant act was one of the most Dionysian actions I have ever undertaken.)

Out of a desire to honor both cultural traditions and their gods, I began to research the history of Egypt under the Makedonian Ptolemies and later the Romans. My studies led further and further back. What I found surprised me: not only was there a superficial overlay of a Greek upper class ruling the native Egyptian populace, but for centuries and perhaps millenia before that the two cultures had met via trade, war, and intermarriage, mutually inspiring each other in the fields of religion and philosophy and contributing to a powerful synthesis of cultures best exemplified by Hellenistic Alexandria. Many of these contacts have been documented in my article Greece and Egypt before the Ptolemies, as well as Kallistos’ excellent Foreign Gods, Syncreticism, and Hellenismos.

At first I thought that I would be alone in this, always an outsider, not entirely Hellenic but not entirely Kemetic either. Then as I began discussing my experiences straddling two faith traditions and chronicling the discoveries I had made, others came out of the wood-work. More and more people related experiences similar to my own, of feeling called to honor gods from other pantheons, of having an intense interest in the Hellenistic era and Ptolemaic Egypt. As we talked and started hashing things out, it became obvious that there were enough commonalities in our approach to justify the creation of a Greco-Egyptian group – and thus Neos Alexandria was born.

Over time we have put together a wonderful website full of resources of interest to people from both the Hellenic and Kemetic community. We have developed our own festival calendar, honoring the gods of Greece and Egypt jointly. We have our own rituals. We are working on numerous projects, such as the Bibliotheca Alexandrina which is going to bring out devotional anthologies and other writings for all of our gods. We are planning a major gathering in 2009. And we have a thriving community where people can come to learn, share their experiences, and talk about the gods and issues relating to their worship. The members of Neos Alexandria are diverse in their approach: we have Greco-Egyptians, as well as folks who are predominately Kemetic or Hellenic but feel a call to include some of the gods from the other pantheon into their worship; and we also have people who aren’t the least bit interested in syncreticism, but just enjoy the conversations and fellowship. All are welcome, provided they respect the gods and treat each other politely.

That is my religion: I am a Greco-Egyptian syncreticist, primarily devoted to Dionysos but honoring all of the gods of Neos Alexandria. As I am able, I keep all of the festivals on our calendar, at least making a small offering to them when I cannot do something more substantial. I find equal inspiration in the wisdom of Greece and Egypt, and do not see these systems as incompatable. Both traditions teach piety towards the gods, have a high regard for justice, hospitality, moderation and self-control, and even their conceptions of the afterlife are strikingly similar.

Some people have accused me of being eclectic. Actually, since I focus on the festivals and forms of worship known to have been performed in Alexandria, Naukratis, Ptolemais, Panopolis and the territories that fell under Ptolemaic control from roughly the 4th century bce to the 1st century ce (and a little after) I am far more strict in my approach than many who haphazardly borrow from very different poleis and any time period from the Greek Dark Ages to the fall of Rome, without concern for regional variants or the diversity of understanding that can exist between say, a farmer and a philosopher. Not that I am saying that that is a superior approach: whatever is pleasing to the gods and fulfilling to the individual is what I count the best. Nor, for that matter, is my reconstructionism a show-piece: it is a vital living religious faith, open to innovation and adaptation when the current situation necessitates it. But everything I do and believe is weighed against the spirit of antiquity, and hopefully found to be consistent with that as it finds expression in the modern world.

Some have questioned whether I am entitled to continue writing about Hellenismos since I also honor the Egyptian deities. I am as Hellenic as Plato, Socrates, Pindar, Phillip II, Alexander III, Ptolemy Soter, Plutarch, and Pausanias, all of whom paid respects to the Egyptian gods as well as their own. Hell, the term Hellenismos itself was coined by a Roman emperor who worshipped Kybele and Mithras, so exclusivity has nothing to do with it. You may not agree with what I say, and that's fine. But you cannot dismiss it as ‘not suitably Hellenic’ without tossing out most of what makes Hellenismos so great as well.

Some have accused me of making it all up to justify my ‘eclecticism’. I would suggest that these people crack open a book. To begin with I would recommend:

Walter Burkert’s Babylon, Memphis, Persepolis: Eastern Contexts of Greek Culture
Walter Otto’s Priests and Temples in Hellenistic Egypt
David Frankfurter’s Religion in Roman Egypt: Assimilation and Resistance
P. M. Fraser’s Ptolemaic Alexandria
Justin Pollard and Howard Reid’s The Rise and Fall of Alexandria: Birthplace of the Modern World
Gunter Holbl’s History of the Ptolemaic Empire

Once they have finished those I have a couple hundred others they could look into. There is no excuse for such ignorance when the material is amply available for them to read.

Some have suggested that I am elitist, that I want Hellenismos and Greco-Egyptian syncreticism to be the bastion of scholars and academics, with no place for newbies or those without an interest in philosophy. I would suggest that such people actually go back and read what I have written:

http://www.neosalexandria.org/principles.htm
http://www.neosalexandria.org/communicating.htm
http://www.neosalexandria.org/getting_started.htm
http://www.neosalexandria.org/smoke.htm
http://www.neosalexandria.org/ges_gmc.htm
http://www.wildivine.org/dionysos_paths.htm

If you still maintain that after reading those articles, I would sure as hell like to know what you’re basing that on.

Others again assert that I am a would-be tyrant who expects people to take my word as gospel truth on everything I say and never question me in the slightest. This is perhaps the most laughable accusation I have ever seen.

First off, anyone who has even skimmed my writing can’t fail to have noticed the ample citations I make. Unless I am stating my own personal opinion about something (which is always carefully labeled as such, with the caveat that others may justifiably see things differently) I make sure that I either quote the passage I am discussing in full, provide the proper citation, or point out where this is being discussed in an academic’s work. Why do I do this? Because I think it makes the text look pretty? Hardly – footnotes and citations are often ugly and interfere with the flow of the writing. To show off my ‘book smarts’? That would be vain and pointless. Everyone knows I’m smart; I have no need to advertise the fact. No, it’s for the simple reason that I hope that if the reader has a question about something I’ve written they’ll follow up on it and track down the original text to read it for themselves. By all means, if you feel that I’m making something up or quoting a piece out of context, go ahead and show me where I’ve done that.

I believe in the free flow of information. I believe that no one is above reproach or that what they say should be accepted without question. I believe that all people have an equal say in how things should be run, and that the greenest novice has just as much right to be heard as the crustiest old-timer. I hold these beliefs generally – but insist on it as an absolute fact when it comes to religion. No one can tell you how to worship your gods, what the proper way to understand them is, or what your identity may be. That is why when Neos Alexandria was drafting it’s guiding Principles I insisted on the following:

Neos Alexandria is a non-hierarchical religious organization, governed by a strict adherence to the principle of isopoliteia which means “equality under the law”. As such, all of our members are held to the same standards of behavior and have an equal say in determining how the group will be run. We have no priestly caste; every member can approach the altar of his or her god and make offerings there and participate in whatever religious activity they feel compelled to. We do recognize that some individuals may be more experienced in religious matters or have a stronger relationship with a given deity than another: as such their knowledge and experience are to be respected, without necessarily feeling that such a person is fundamentally different or superior to his or her fellows.

Nor are those just empty words. I am one of the founders of the group, the moderator of the list, and by many people’s assent, instrumental in shaping it into what it is today. But I am no better than anyone else, possess no greater authority than even our newest member. Several times now that has been amply demonstrated. I have proposed things to the list which were soundly rejected. Did I bitterly attack the members for not seeing things my way? Cajole them until they left the list and then hassle them in their own private journal? Did I accuse them of not understanding things properly and having ulterior motives in saying what they did? Did I write endless diatribes and shlocky essays attacking everything they said, wrote, or did – including intimate personal details that have no relevance to the issues being debated?

No.

I congratulated them on speaking up, on thinking critically about the issues, on taking an active role in determining how the group is going to be run, on seeing things more clearly than I had.

And that is how it should be. That is what isopoliteia means. It is one of the most cherished ideals of ancient Greece – and central to Greco-Egyptian syncreticism as it is being revived by the members of Neos Alexandria today. I am proud to stand with these people, proud to call them co-religionists, proud to make offerings to the gods of Greece and Egypt collectively with them. If other people don’t like it, and wish to kick me out of their little club, so be it. I have a strong and active religious community already, and nothing they can do or say can touch that.

Now that that has been resolved, I hope that people can move on to more important things, like honoring the gods and helping to revive their worship in the modern world. Believe me, I am not worth your time. If I wasn't Sannion, I wouldn't spare a second's thought for what he believes.




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[info]die_uberfrau
2008-01-08 12:36 am UTC (link)
Hear hear!

First of all... what other people think doesn't matter, overall. Go with the Gods. I can understand complaints about willful and thoughtless eclecticism, with "I can call as many Gods from as many pantheons I want, use them for this spell, and not even have to offer them anything because that's what they're there for." I went through a period of being Very Angry at Wiccans because of this, and being treated badly because they thought I was heretical for working only with the Nordic pantheon.

The thing is, what you are doing is *not* eclecticism. It's historically accurate, and it makes sense. This is also why I normally don't object to Celtic/Norse or Norse/Slavic dual-trad, as there is some historical precedence for this, as well.

The thing to keep in mind overall is the wishes and desires of the Gods. You clearly have gone out of your way to treat both Greek and Egyptian Gods with respect, to give Them proper honor. This is admirable, and a damn sight more so than the purists.

We go through similar things in Northern Trad with the same people spouting the loudest about "historical accuracy" and yet refusing to read historical texts that contradict things approved by Asapope Whoever. It's quite maddening.

In my book, you're OK, which may mean nothing considering what a heretical Heathen I am, but I respect your path. The Northern Deities keep me too busy to deal with Anyone else, but I think *all* the Gods exist and if I'm not personally honoring a pantheon/Deity it's good someone else is doing so. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]die_uberfrau
2008-01-08 12:47 am UTC (link)
Oh... and we need altar pics! Looking at people's altars (if they're serious Pagans) is like pr0n to me, on some level.

Mind you, I take all of the pics of my spiritual schtuff on a cell phone and then have to photoshop to adjust brightness/contrast, but pics are pics. :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 12:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]die_uberfrau, 2008-01-08 01:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 01:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]die_uberfrau, 2008-01-08 02:16 am UTC

[info]sannion
2008-01-08 12:55 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the vote of confidence. :)

I know it's not a big deal; most people in the Hellenic community know that as well - but there's a creepy guy who has an unhealthy obsession with me and seems to write a rant each day attacking me and the group. Up until now I've pretty much just brushed it off as the rantings of a loon - but I figure, just in case someone who doesn't know better comes across it, they should at least have the other side presented as well.

And yeah, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what people say, only the gods. And I've been very careful to test the waters every step of the way, and mostly it's been quite favorable. In fact, I've even been chastised by Dionysos and Hermes for neglecting the Egyptian gods when I got overwhelmed with other stuff a while back. The one exception to that was altar placement. Thoth wanted his own space instead of being stuck on Hermes' shrine. They don't seem to mind being honored in the same ritual - nor even being placed together with a bunch of gods on a shrine to the pantheon as a whole - but something about being relegated to another god's shrine rubbed him the wrong way. And hey, I can totally dig that. I wouldn't particularly like that, myself. I learned the lesson and things have run pretty smoothely since then.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]die_uberfrau, 2008-01-08 01:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]die_uberfrau, 2008-01-08 02:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]die_uberfrau, 2008-01-08 07:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 07:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]die_uberfrau, 2008-01-09 01:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]watersusurrus, 2008-01-08 01:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 01:58 am UTC

[info]erl_queen
2008-01-08 01:37 am UTC (link)
This is also why I normally don't object to Celtic/Norse or Norse/Slavic dual-trad, as there is some historical precedence for this, as well.

And even when there isn't much precedence, the way I see it, things have changed a lot. These days, most of us are exposed to gods from all cultures, whereas people used to only know the gods of their own culture. And the gods are independent beings with Their own desires and agendas. So I would be surprised if it *didn't* at least occasionally happen that someone was called on by a god outside of their chosen pantheon.

Take me, for example. Generally, I stay within a Hellenic context. But I also pay some cultus to Odin - I met Him through doing frequent ritual with my ex, who was an Odinsman, and after we broke up, Odin stuck around. It was unexpected, but what am I supposed to do, tell Odin that I can't pay honor to Him because He isn't the right nationality? Yeah, so I do the work, the research, to learn the most appropriate ways to honor Him, and I do that separately from my Greek stuff. It works pretty well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 01:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ardaniel, 2008-01-08 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 01:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]watersusurrus, 2008-01-08 01:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 01:57 am UTC
Ah Trunkface, how I love thee! - [info]xi_o_teaz, 2008-01-08 03:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dawnpiper, 2008-01-08 05:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]die_uberfrau, 2008-01-08 02:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wire_mother, 2008-01-13 07:14 pm UTC

[info]watersusurrus
2008-01-08 01:03 am UTC (link)
Heh. Well, most of the nasty stuff I hear about recons I never see, so clearly I am very new and protected, ;P

Some have questioned whether I am entitled to continue writing about Hellenismos since I also honor the Egyptian deities.
YES. And men shouldn't write about feminism, no non-German historian should write about the Nazi Party, I shouldn't write poems about heterosexual sex and we should all STAY IN OUR BOXES, DAMN YOU.

Ahem. Sorry. Hit some buttons.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 01:06 am UTC (link)
Heh. Well, most of the nasty stuff I hear about recons I never see, so clearly I am very new and protected, ;P

Consider yourself lucky, hon. I'd gladly trade places with you in a moment. lol

Ahem. Sorry. Hit some buttons.

You are made of win!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shadowgardens
2008-01-09 05:15 pm UTC (link)
STAY IN OUR BOXES, DAMN YOU.

LOL

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]droops
2008-01-08 02:57 am UTC (link)
Some people have accused me of being eclectic.

Um, what's wrong with being eclectic?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 05:01 am UTC (link)
Nothing at all! Some of my best friends are eclectic. (Heh. No seriously, they are, and it's totally cool, I admire what they've done with their approach.) But it's simply not an accurate description of what I do. An eclectic is someone who borrows from many sources, often without regard to fusing those strands into a cohesive system. I draw from Alexandria and its tributaries in Greece, Egypt and the Levant, and am concerned with producing a recognizeable and workable synthesis of the material. It's an issue of terminology, which is hardly an important thing since people will understand the terms differently and perhaps not recognize such a great difference between the two approaches.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]xi_o_teaz
2008-01-08 03:36 am UTC (link)
An excellent post. You are one of the stronger Priests of any God that I've yet met. I really appreciated having a more explanatory post about "what yer about", not to "Label" you so much as better understand you and your beliefs.

This makes me want to write about my crazy beliefs now... perhaps I'll do that as a break from my book wRiting.

We still need to get together here soon... You and [info]erl_queen will hafta come over some night for dinner and some Ritual...

Agape!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 05:03 am UTC (link)
Thank you, friend. I did try to make it both entertaining and educational and not just a "you suck, mr poo-poo head" to my detractors.

Yes, yes! We definitely need to get together sometime soon. It's been much too long.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]erl_queen
2008-01-08 05:54 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, and I still have your book to return! Let us know when a good time might be, my schedule isn't looking too crazy the next couple weeks, but next month will be insane.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]chironcentaur
2008-01-08 04:34 am UTC (link)
Fascinating read, sorry about the circumstances it was written under. How do you manage to keep attracting these people? :-P

You're probably one of the better people I've come across online, and I don't like that many people. You're writing helped me out more than anything else when I first wandered over here. I'm probably far from the only person who can say that.

Fuck the assholes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 05:13 am UTC (link)
Fascinating read, sorry about the circumstances it was written under.

Thanks. Aside from the apologetic circumstances that it was written under, I thought it might be interesting for folks to get more of my 'background' story and the formative process of how what I do now came to be. It's been a long, strange trip - and I hope the unfolding learning process never ceases.

How do you manage to keep attracting these people? :-P

I have no clue. I avoid conflict on the lists now, tending towards diplomacy even when that means biting my tongue. I have never engaged with this person before they started attacking me and writing endlessly about myself and my group, never even ran into them on any of the lists, so it was a complete surprise when they came out of left field and started doing this. What made it even creepier is that I saw that before he began hating on me, he seemed to have this sick hero-worship thing going on. EVERY single post that he made on his forum about Hellenic topics was merely posting a link to one of my essays. Somewhere along the line is opinion soured, and now he devotes all of his time to trying to take me down a notch. Why, I have no clue. I'd just rather the annoying pest went away and concerned himself with his own beliefs and practices. (Assuming that there is any, and he's not just a troll.)

You're probably one of the better people I've come across online, and I don't like that many people. You're writing helped me out more than anything else when I first wandered over here. I'm probably far from the only person who can say that.

Awww, thank you hon. That means a lot. And in an odd way, you've inspired me as well, so it's like the Circle of Life, without the singing warthog. :)

Fuck the assholes.

Not even with the world's strongest condom. Can you imagine the STDs involved?



(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chironcentaur, 2008-01-08 05:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 05:24 am UTC

[info]zoe_me
2008-01-08 06:13 am UTC (link)
I wonder if it isn't something more basic and base, like he worries you are selling more books than he is?

Now I have a beef with all this because apparently I am hiding under the right rocks or something. I haven't gotten wind of any of the drama you have been writing about, and esh! how could I be on this many lists and be this out of the loop?
I mean REALLY: If you are working this hard to steal my title as the reigning "dark underbelly of Hellenic paganism" I would like to know what I am up against. I guess I should be thrilled you are keeping up the smoke screen, so when I make my next move no one sees it coming.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 06:46 am UTC (link)
Ah, well that's the thing. None of this is actually happening on any of the lists. It's all centered around a single forum and this individual's journal. He doesn't dare show his face in public, because he knows that the community would take him to task in a second. That's actually how I think a lot of this got started. He invited a friend of mine onto his forum after that friend favorably reviewed his book. He expected this friend to be a yes-man and praise him daily like everyone else he has around him, but when the friend actually had the audacity to question something he said - very politely, too - the shit hit the fan. He chased him off the forum and then started stalking the fellow. I made a general comment about the futility of flame-wars, and this guy's animosity shifted to me for no explicable reason. Since then he's made numerous attacks against us, most of which I simply ignored. But since this has continued, even after I confronted him about it, I figured I ought to address some of the groundless accusations he's raised, just in case. I ignored the utterly preposterous things he said - for instance that I'm a hack because I went to alternative high school. I'm not sure why he thinks that's relevant. Is he suggesting that everyone who doesn't wish to opt into our country's beleagured educational system are mouth-breathing traglodytes, petty criminals, and crack-whore teen moms? That's a rather sweeping generalization there - and completely without merit. Some of the folks I went to school with became nurses or work in the IT field now. And in my case, it was because you could work at your own pase, and I found regular school to be unchallenging. I got into a fast-track program that let me take college-level courses and get both high school and college credit for them, even though I was a teen. Even so, I'm not sure what that has to do with my fitness to write about Hellenismos. This is a religion, not a classics program. No one should be expected to get a PHD before they're permitted to talk about the gods and ancient Greek culture. Especially when I've done the same level of reading as several of my PHD-wielding friends. The only difference is that they know French, German, Latin, and Greek (and Demotic) whereas I'm stuck with English. But hey, plenty of academic journals are printed in English, as well as dissertations and monographs, which means that I can stay abreast of recent discoveries that haven't managed to filter down into the books carried by the major chains, which seem to be all that this fellow has read.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chironcentaur, 2008-01-08 07:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 07:37 am UTC

[info]theinnerdemons
2008-01-08 09:54 am UTC (link)
thank you for sharing that - it was a long and interesting read!

so, in a way, you're a vrother ;) i am, besides all the rest, a kemetic orthodox shemsut. i was divined a little over a year ago daughter of Sekhmet(-Hethert) and Bast-Mut, beloved of Set and Amun. Sekhmet has been in my life for well over 10 years now, and continues to be a strong presence at times.

i grew up in a christian non-practising household, then moved in with my mom who was in a fundie community. from there i moved on after 7 years of brainwashing there, to dianic wicca. i joined the F.O.I. and after studying, was ordained priestess of Sekhmet, Sophia and Asherah. from there i was led to feminist theology and started studying theology for a master's, which i am still doing currently. i was again and again drawn to judaism, also to canaanite recon, whilst egypt continued to have a place of choice in my heart. i was constantly torn between christianity (for a good deal simply because of a fear of hell that has been instilled in me throughout the years in the fundie community by the means of brainwashing, indoctrination and exorcisms), judaism and kemetic orthodoxy. i only learned easter 2007 of my jewish roots. my grandparents were too ashamed, after the Shoah (i grew up in germany mostly). so my ethnic roots are a lil quarter of swiss and german, and the rest is split between ashkenazi, mizrahi, ethiopian and egyptian. and as my ethnic origins are diverse, so is my spirituality/religio. the foremost place goes to judaism, but i am involved with a local church (even though i cannot agree on various doctrinal issues and practices, but we are friends anyway), and keep close links with kemetic orthodoxy. HaShem, in my mind, equals very much with the concept of Netjer in the House.

Photobucket

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 03:57 pm UTC (link)
Oh, that is lovely! Both your naos and the story you shared. I am very, very glad to have met you - and I concur, that's one of the reasons why Neos Alexandria includes HaShem in our list of deities. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bluedolfyn
2008-01-08 01:13 pm UTC (link)
*bewildered* I have no idea how, having actually *read* what you write, anyone could or would decide any of those things about you... You write with your heart out for the world to see, that this is your passion... it bewilders me, the things people see that aren't there.

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[info]sannion
2008-01-08 03:57 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the vote of confidence hon :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shadowandstar
2008-01-08 02:37 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for posting this. I haven't known you long, but when I found your journal. your scholarship, your sincere devotion to your gods, and your hospitality and courtesy toward others were immediately obvious.

The gods often lead us on a spiral path of devotion. We think we're settled, that we've found our place, and then They throw us a curve, lead us to a new awareness, a new and deeper understanding -- and everything shifts. It's always fascinating to me to read about how this has happened in other peoples' lives.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 03:58 pm UTC (link)
It has indeed been a long, strange trip - and I love hearing other people's winding tales.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]snowcalla
2008-01-08 03:52 pm UTC (link)
Sannion...this has been pretty depressing. I'm not sure why. I mean...I know people are people and there is always *stuff* that happens when you get any group of humans together. But I just don't understand it. Not at all. The other person, while carefully claiming he was not referencing your writing, was so far off base and so circular in arguement that I was positive that he really wasn't referencing it at all. Guess I was wrong. My apology for feeding the silliness in another journal - I thought a serious discussion could take place - and I didn't help matters.

And while this fun has been happening on LJ, other fun has been going on elsewhere. Not on the yahoo lists, thankfully...but going batshit seems to be in the air. I have cut out some places that I normally visit because I count on my spiritual life to carry me through things, but it can't do that when I'm allowing my well to be poisoned. Shame on me.

I enjoy reading what you write and I appreciate the way that you lay it out and your clear style. I kept some of your writings before I even found you on the lists or on LJ.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-08 04:05 pm UTC (link)
I'm not why he insisted on that, when even complete strangers could tell he was ranting about me and another member of NA. (I had several people write me privately about it.) I don't know whether to attribute it to maliciousness or cowardice. But either way, it's terribly annoying.

And dear, you have nothing to apologize for. You didn't feed the silliness - you had genuine questions and contributed interesting thoughts to the debate.

Don't be discouraged. Most of the people in any group are decent, hard-working, polite, and devoted folk. It's just a couple loud-mouthed brazen people clamoring for attention that cause the strife. But they do not represent the majority. The best way to deal with them is to ignore them - or to confront them, and then move on, having said your peace.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]sannion, 2008-01-08 04:25 pm UTC

[info]alfrecht
2008-01-09 06:15 am UTC (link)
Well stated, and every word of it is true and well-intentioned. I'm sorry that some people are continuing to be, as we used to say in Ireland, big thickoes about this.

I look at my role in the Ekklesia in a similar light, and hope that my efforts therein have been as effective and as well-executed as yours in Neos Alexandria (and elsewhere) have been.

George Cecil Ives has a wonderful phrase that is somewhat parallel to your definition of isopoliteia: "All are equal as to authority, but not as to effort." And I'd add that a perception of lesser effort on someone's part is not necessarily a bad thing or an automatic negative; some people simply don't have the time to devote to such things, nor the interest or inclination to do so, and if their life is still a good one, who am I to say anything negative?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-09 08:32 am UTC (link)
well said! i'll have to remember that quote

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]shadowgardens
2008-01-09 05:10 pm UTC (link)
I found this an interesting read. I love reading about how others come to their beliefs.

Ideas of cultural purity be damned. I would stradle two worlds if need be, and tear down all the self-imposed and illusionary walls that served to separate them in the process.

Damn straight.

If you still maintain that after reading those articles, I would sure as hell like to know what you’re basing that on.

I am eclectic. I find inspiritaion in and enjoy reading your writings, and yet we hold very different beliefs. If you were an elitist tyrant would I be reading your journal?

Also, I sometimes post things you say in my personal on-line BOS. It's private, no one else sees it. I hope you don't mind, I always credit you =)

Edited at 2008-01-09 05:11 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sannion
2008-01-09 06:31 pm UTC (link)
Awww. I'm glad to hear that. Thank you, hon. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shadowgardens, 2008-01-09 06:35 pm UTC
Thanks
[info]julilla1
2008-01-14 07:58 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

I don't know why anyone would object to what you're doing. I am always amazed when those who criticize stuff like this couldn't take even five minutes and do a lame ass Wikipedia search on the net--"Ooooh, look there are some folks here named Ptolemy!" Gah. It makes them look worse than ignorant, IMO.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Thanks
[info]sannion
2008-01-15 05:55 am UTC (link)
Couldn't agree more. :)

More to the point though, I wonder why such people waste so much time worrying about what others believe and do. I just don't like people enough to care. lol

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Thanks - [info]julilla1, 2008-01-15 10:44 pm UTC
Re: Thanks - [info]sannion, 2008-01-16 01:36 am UTC

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